00:00:09: My name is Rene Korka and I cordially welcome you to my podcast, No Music

00:00:12: in Eden.

00:00:13: I have studied classical singing and voice And i love sing lots of contemporary and experimental music.

00:00:21: If you would like know more about me please look at the website.

00:00:24: You can also subscribe there To my monthly newsletter.

00:00:28: In this podcast I talk about themes all around Contemporary music who are involved in this music scene.

00:00:37: I share with you the behind-the scenes, the insider knowledge and most important – The human beings out of this world!

00:01:04: I'm listening to your podcast and those are very, very beautiful encounters for me.

00:01:11: Also this summer we're gonna do the best of season again because it's quite a success actually!

00:01:18: And that is good way... ...to kind-of fill the summer.. ..for many reasons.

00:01:26: When i do the Best Of Episodes ,I look at all download numbers then decide from the episodes who rank really high to play them again.

00:01:37: And yes, you like that as I can see it and the downloads are great!

00:01:43: In today's episode we're going to replay The Interview with composer and guitarist Michael Pissarro.

00:01:53: Hello Michael It is so great that your here and take time for this interview with me.

00:01:58: Thank You i'm happy to be here Eurena.

00:02:01: My first question for you is how did you find your way into new music?

00:02:07: That's a good question.

00:02:08: I'm gonna have to think of it, uh...I listened the radio lot when i was growing up and.. ...i was near Chicago starting around when I was eight or nine And at some point I discovered college radio which in the seventies-and-eighties ..was kind of a bastion of unusual music.

00:02:31: We also had in Chicago a very good radio station.

00:02:34: I don't think it exists anymore called WFMT, but i didn't learn about that until later.

00:02:40: Somehow on the radio I started hearing avant-garde music probably when I was in my teens early teens or so?

00:02:48: I remember hearing Penderetsky and Cage...I Don't Think I Was There But I Remember The Chicago Symphony did A concert for the bicentennial, which would have been seventeen seventy-six in Which I think the piece involved drawings by Cage of Thoreau and This was broadcast on the radio.

00:03:10: And of course it was a big strange event with people walking out and that excited me.

00:03:16: i should say i was already very interested in free jazz and That's an area especially The AACM group which was originated in Chicago.

00:03:29: You know, Anthony Braxton, Mulhall Richard Abrams Leo Smith the Art Ensemble of Chicago basically all started there.

00:03:39: so that's probably the first avant-garde music I actually heard having been interested in jazz were these improvised sometimes composed concerts by members of the AACM.

00:03:53: So what, out-of-one garden music would you say that?

00:03:56: You really liked it or were

00:03:58: fascinated?

00:04:00: I loved it!

00:04:01: Yeah...I think if you kind grow up listening to first music like most people my age was rock music and found your way already into Jimi Hendrix Still, it sounds like an avant-garde music.

00:04:21: And I think really most...I would guess that in most people growing up the

00:04:26: U.S.,

00:04:26: certainly at my time but probably still the case.

00:04:30: That's how they find their way.

00:04:32: But if you're lucky enough to live a place like Chicago where there was thriving avant-guards scene It wasn't the European scene at all!

00:04:41: This very American but truly avant-guard music Experimental Music then didn't take long to find out.

00:04:50: And how does this

00:04:51: jazz experience come into, or does it still influence you and your way of working composing?

00:04:57: Probably I mean the thing about AACM.

00:05:00: they called a creative music... There were some clear ties but They were also, I mean in some cases Joseph Jarman who was one of the members of The Art Ensemble.

00:05:15: Was clearly influenced by Cage and tried to work with Cage at some point.

00:05:20: Braxton also.

00:05:22: so we're actually talking about a music that isn't quite jazz.

00:05:25: it's not quite classical music i mean the word now is experimental music.

00:05:32: That was my formative experience, really.

00:05:34: Because rather than just hearing it on the radio I would sing and play all of that time.

00:05:39: And you could say in a way It's an indeterminate music too because even though there were compositions their improvisation is very much part of tradition at this same time.

00:05:52: So yeah...I don't think my music sounds like that Very often if at all But the principles started there, for sure.

00:06:03: And what represents good new music?

00:06:07: I have no idea!

00:06:09: It's always changing...I mean i don't have a reliable set of even favorite recordings or favorite artists.

00:06:20: it is mostly drawn to things that are new and challenge me And so I'm more likely to be excited about something that might even quite old, but then know nothing of it.

00:06:36: So...I don't have any kind a fixed canon.

00:06:40: It's usually the case if i like some thing before and probably still liked But its also not part my active listening.

00:06:51: What are qualities you most appreciate in performance?

00:07:00: Yeah, that's a good question.

00:07:02: That's really good question.

00:07:03: I may have to think of it.

00:07:05: i Think i don't want to say there is any one quality because what?

00:07:10: I appreciate most Is the are the differences between them for formers i work with.

00:07:17: so if It's If you sense that your working With somebody who isn't away Really themselves and have interesting differences in interpretation or sound, and thinking.

00:07:31: Of course that's what interests me And it is not something anybody produces.

00:07:36: So I don't think...I'm the kind of person who thinks anyone should try to be different.

00:07:40: i think we already are different.

00:07:42: sometimes The music I write or the music Im involved with seems allow for these differences to emerge.

00:07:50: thats really what excites more than any particular quality.

00:07:55: Of course I would rather work with performers who want to engage in the music i'm doing, so not somebody that looks for a performer's or just ask them if they need something out of blue If didn't feel like it was already wanted to be engaged.

00:08:14: So when it comes to the qualities there has been Interest in working together.

00:08:23: I mean that's probably the ground That's the base level of what makes it What makes it fun?

00:08:30: Yeah, sounds really interesting.

00:08:31: You also are part of The Wandelweiser group.

00:08:35: How would you describe WandelWeiser to somebody who might not have heard about It already?

00:08:41: yeah i think i've done this enough times and i try Not To repeat myself which is stupid actually but I would say, first and foremost it's a group of friends.

00:08:53: The strongest aspect of Vondelweiser for me is the ongoing sort-of working together experiencing music together sharing interests.

00:09:06: It's this kind of friendly atmosphere.

00:09:08: that's what it is to be.

00:09:10: you know if i think internally Of course im aware That there were periods especially early in Vondervisor, where it would have been fair to make a kind of stylistic description.

00:09:24: But I don't use that any longer because it really doesn't apply.

00:09:27: the Vondavisor is now... ...because in fact its not even accountable group.

00:09:34: You could say there are a certain number of people that are published by Vondelweiser, but when I think about it... ...I think about all kinds of people who may or may not be composers.

00:09:43: Who maybe on the list?

00:09:46: Or they might be composers But their'e NOT ON THE LIST OF PEOPLE PUBLISHED!

00:09:49: And so this is larger network than anybody even Antoine has grasp over And it's still about the connections that you have with people who are in it.

00:10:05: So certainly my image of Vandalizer is different than anybody else because I've got a whole different set of people, and whom i work with... ...who are somehow part of this world.

00:10:15: So there was lots of development?

00:10:18: Yeah definitely!

00:10:19: It has been over twenty five years old at this point.. ..and just everything changed.

00:10:26: Initially we had very small groups And I think within a few years it consolidated around maybe four or five, six people actually.

00:10:36: There might have been more sort of in the periphery but from my experience say twenty-five years ago i was dealing mainly with the same four to five people all the time and following very closely their work.

00:10:49: uh...and we had so much overlap.

00:10:52: what were interested at that point?

00:10:54: That's fairly unique thing and happily everybody kind of grows in their own direction.

00:11:02: It was already evident then, but now I don't think you could mistake one person's music for another... But as that has fanned out all kinds other people have come into the interstices or do things.

00:11:16: maybe twenty-five years ago nobody would've thought about doing so.

00:11:20: it becomes basically impossible to describe as a musical style.

00:11:25: I think it's an experimental music, I mean Antoine and I were talking about this the other day And i was thinking It...it is different generation of experimental music.

00:11:39: that followed from what I perceived As lull in this kind of avant-garde music My friend Volker Strabel writing about American experimental music.

00:11:55: In the eighties, he wrote an article called in which you call it The Death of the Avant-Garde—of the American avant-garde Which didn't mean all the composers died, Cage was still alive and Christian Wolfe most to that period Feldman and so forth Pauline Oliveros Most those people were still around but as a music That seemed have any cultural currency It had almost disappeared.

00:12:21: When I was studying, nobody talked about Cage except as a philosopher.

00:12:26: Certainly his music wasn't played except by maybe one professor i had who would play in class.

00:12:33: You felt like you have to deal with Cage but also got the sense.

00:12:36: it's tangible that people were relieved not having to deal these very challenging and open-ended questions they had.

00:12:46: you know that occurred as a result of experimental music at the period.

00:12:50: So when I was studying it's, people thought much more about well how do we write?

00:12:56: music will appeal to large audience.

00:12:59: in retrospect its easy to say there were complete failure and never happened.

00:13:04: but then time didn't like...that is main direction.

00:13:09: things where headed.

00:13:10: so It's interesting that when Volnaweiser started in ninety two or ninety three, my standpoint was these must be about the only people interested in this music.

00:13:22: I know i'm wrong but thats how it felt and...I think that gap is actually a feature of.

00:13:30: In retrospect, it seems to me that's a feature of what made us who we were because there was the sense.

00:13:36: not.

00:13:36: you're just continuing where someone had left off but they have been reinvented.

00:13:42: Sounds great!

00:13:43: How do your friends family colleagues and audiences react with this sort of music?

00:13:49: It

00:13:52: is all over the map.

00:13:54: I mean Naya.

00:13:54: family members can't relate at all.

00:14:01: I try not to make it their problem.

00:14:05: Anybody doing avant-garde music probably knows this experience, that at some point your taste develops or heads in a certain direction and is so far from the mainstream.

00:14:20: people who don't engage seriously with music, might never come anywhere close to that.

00:14:26: It seems like it comes from Mars or something like that.

00:14:29: I've certainly had my share of those reactions from family and old friends and so forth.

00:14:34: Rather astoundingly however there is a good-sized audience for this music.

00:14:40: Its not always located in one place Certainly an LA.

00:14:45: its now unusual to have experimental concert With five hundred seats.

00:14:50: thats sells out.

00:14:51: That's awesome.

00:14:52: Yeah, it's not every one by any means but certainly if there is a well-known name Meredith Monk when she played in LA you couldn't get a ticket to that.

00:15:04: The Julius Eastman concerts are selling really Well.

00:15:07: I mean these.

00:15:08: he's kind of larger events But even we did Kind of Vondelweiser related concert In Red Cap which is a Cal Arts kind of theater that holds a couple hundred and sold out.

00:15:22: So, I mean... That can happen!

00:15:28: Some places there's recognizable audience but this larger audience exists everywhere in the world.

00:15:39: most of us are almost everywhere.

00:15:43: Most have sense a dim sense of this, and it's now not that unusual.

00:15:51: Certainly when I'm talking in various places like you...in the

00:15:53: U.S.,

00:15:56: most people i talk to already know about Von Deweyzer.

00:15:59: Of course I am NOT just talking to people on the street That test I haven't done yet but People who are already into some kind of contemporary music world.

00:16:10: So there is alot less explaining now than there used to be.

00:16:15: That's very amazing!

00:16:17: Do you think they're prejudiced against new music?

00:16:20: And if so, how do want see things change?

00:16:23: or what are YOU doing... ...to bring change in these attitudes?

00:16:27: Clearly most of the people I deal with are not prejudice against New Music.

00:16:32: To be honest i don't thank much about expanding the audience.

00:16:39: I don't actually think you can change people's prejudices through any kind of argumentation.

00:16:46: It seems to be experience that does them, and so the interesting question is more how do things remain open for other experiences myself?

00:17:00: What does it feel like?

00:17:02: or what draws me into a concert of Persian music when it's a foreign language to me, its music I didn't grow up with.

00:17:10: And yet what kinds of inner resistances do have overcome?

00:17:15: actually go the concert?

00:17:18: So course i think about that in reverse and makes me well in terms programming.

00:17:25: putting on concerts where live.

00:17:27: It make me thinking how we first all made possible for people find out this is happening.

00:17:35: But even more importantly, how do we learn to welcome anybody who comes through the performance?

00:17:42: That's much trickier than I think most people think it is.

00:17:45: So you can think of yourself as a very open and welcoming person but... ...I think that again having experienced this bit in reverse all kinds All kinds of subtle codes are often given off by people who make music that already suggest to kind of belongs there and who doesn't.

00:18:08: I mean it might be as simple is how people dress.

00:18:11: we had a work on this festival in the summer called The Dogstar Orchestra, not the nicest location in this city, it was a gallery.

00:18:26: It's a place that we've used quite often and its good place for performance.

00:18:30: but you kind of have to drive...not into really dangerous but kinda abandoned part of the city.

00:18:37: most people who are apart at scene would know if don't wear suit as turned out..we had guest came do his concert in a suit and he'd been brought by friend, that's what this guy normally wears to concerts because mostly goes the LA Phil.

00:18:57: I think you might have even be an administrator at The LA Phil.

00:19:00: In any case i thought okay This is classic circumstance of somebody expecting it To Be A Certain Way.

00:19:09: And they come there They feel like an idiot.

00:19:13: everybody else's in t-shirts and jeans, they're the one.

00:19:17: In fact that guy came up to me afterwards and apologized for wearing his suit but I don't think he fell out of place...I mean at first it was a bit of shock to be you know fifty year old guy coming into room with twenty-five year old people in all various states of fashion and it's this but that is a code, right?

00:19:38: And we see it in reverse all the time with new music concerts.

00:19:42: So I think there are actually many things like that.

00:19:45: for me thats more than exists in the sonic world as well.

00:19:51: For me its an interesting question about how find out about the music and how they get introduced to it.

00:20:00: And I think there are really a lot of questions like that.

00:20:04: You're person who is very busy teaching, writing... ...and so i'm curious what your approach to time management?

00:20:15: do you have any advice or daily routine?

00:20:20: I don't really have a daily routine.

00:20:24: My approach changed most radically when we had a child twenty years ago, my wife and I. And decided that we would sort of split responsibilities in terms dealing with babies or small children.

00:20:37: so anybody who's lived this life for awhile probably knows your whole life.

00:20:45: Time management changes radically.

00:20:48: That's probably the biggest impact, far more than trying to juggle.

00:20:52: but one thing I learned from that is that... ...I could do things in less time.

00:21:00: then thought i needed and it's a very strange with creative processes there.

00:21:08: maybe kind of mythology take all the time you need and wait for a good idea to come, eventually it will.

00:21:18: And I'm all-for-patience.

00:21:21: but i also started to realize that if had an hour or two do something there's this kind of auto suggestion.

00:21:30: your body just starts preparing itself mentally For okay...I have these hours work and better be able And I don't think i was conscious of that.

00:21:41: but at some point, when it came to this thinking about time.

00:21:48: It's already ready you know?

00:21:50: Uh...I think a lot happens in that way.

00:21:53: so I'm the kind person who does kinda schedule day and uh..and I do not because feel like need regiment myself as much mental preparation.

00:22:07: So yeah, that's but into.

00:22:08: Yeah I think actually the other thing probably more important than That is that?

00:22:13: i've been very Very lucky to design my life in a way that I feel like The activities flow together so I don't try To do too much when I'm traveling and not really writing music.

00:22:26: When I'm teaching I have days In which I teach And then I have Days in Which I am nothing else to Do But the teaching itself, let's say.

00:22:37: The work with students on music I care about that is also a creative process and i don't feel any...I do not think like thats robbing time from writing music..i still have plenty of time to write music ummm....and if i did something i didn´t like , i would be far more conscious to come back into composition.

00:23:05: Whereas I, like i said...I don't really feel that much ...I feel like creative energy.

00:23:11: the more use it ,the more you have!

00:23:13: I guess is a best way to put it.

00:23:16: and what are you grateful for today?

00:23:19: uh..i think i'm grateful for ..uhh....what i sense not just musically but politically is the emergence of a kind-of hope for the future.

00:23:36: I think it's very easy right now to be distraught, disheartened pessimistic about just take any area.

00:23:46: you know politics since i live in the

00:23:48: U.S.,

00:23:50: You'd almost have to be crazy to be optimistic about politics.

00:23:53: but that only one point of view...I mean we have Trump who I hate Of course!

00:23:58: That's easy to say.

00:23:59: But We Have To Keep In Mind Bernie Sanders probably could have beaten Trump and in fact was almost the Democratic nominee.

00:24:10: He would have been by far.

00:24:12: The furthest left nominee of the US had ever had.

00:24:15: We were so close to that.

00:24:17: I mean if somebody told me that ten years ago, I flat out Would not believed it?

00:24:21: I wouldn't believe that an idiot like trump Could be elected although we've had many idiots as presidents.

00:24:28: but So i think These things, you know situations are always mixed and what started to emerge politically is a sense that well if this could happen then something else can happen.

00:24:43: And so the feeling there's possibilities.

00:24:49: I think we have work towards it.

00:24:53: but i think people realize same thing with environmental issues.

00:24:57: It very easy.

00:24:58: completely depressed about the environmental future, you could even say it's logical to be depressed because we're talking such enormous uncontrollable forces but clearly doesn't do any good.

00:25:12: You have to find a way to imagine of your future.

00:25:17: if that does not seem entirely realistic and this... The emergence for me is.

00:25:25: that's what I'm most thankful for right now.

00:25:28: i think it absolutely applies to the art world, experimental music if you look at even your questions are at the edge of this is nearly impossible to do.

00:25:41: You're hardly well paid for it.

00:25:44: It's not the worlds most popular music.

00:25:48: its hard to support culturally.

00:25:50: everything about seems too kind of work against it, and yet as I was saying –and i really believe this–it's a larger field than its ever been.

00:25:59: So something is happening there where people say,"I want to do this because it's

00:26:04: possible.".

00:26:05: And I don't care if others think that itís unlikely or thatís not going be successful.

00:26:11: what draws me to it is the sense that theres more possibility then there is elsewhere.

00:26:17: so Iím thankful for

00:26:21: Who or what has played the greatest role in shaping you, or what inspires?

00:26:25: You?

00:26:26: um Boy I don't know who's played.

00:26:29: The Greatest Role and Shaping me It.

00:26:32: that's a collection there isn't?

00:26:35: they're clear.

00:26:36: There is no one person for sure.

00:26:38: There's now one person.

00:26:39: Um i think What inspires Me most Is Seeing You Know so i'm fifty-six.

00:26:49: So i Think i'm allowed to say this just just allowed to say this now, is to see much younger people experimenting.

00:26:59: Because so much can happen when that process begins and I know already there's no good reason to do it other than... There's not a good practical reason for doing it.

00:27:17: And So When students or young people who seemingly on their own decided that they want to try something at least, or they've never heard of.

00:27:34: That seems nearly impossible to imagine... ...or it just comes from left field and whatever.. ..that's the most inspiring thing for me!

00:27:44: Of course I'm inspired by wisdom coming from whatever direction parallel.

00:27:51: you know people much older, Greek philosophy and so forth.

00:27:55: but there's a sense in which You need In order for those things to be resonant for you at any given time.

00:28:06: You need to feel that There is something alive in the world that your actually in.

00:28:12: I don't think i'm gonna look back To some fantastic cultural explosion, and just be able to find the life in it without any exposure to that at my own time.

00:28:26: And so I think anytime we need more of a sense something worthwhile is actually happening than when you know there are other things worthwhile had happened.

00:28:38: So i'm really very much on.

00:28:40: look out for those You know, I don't just wait for them to come to me.

00:28:46: I'm actively searching out... So where in the emerging sort of art music whatever world is something happening that shocks or surprises me?

00:28:58: Or makes me think i never dreamed Something like THAT was possible?

00:29:04: And what does it mean for you To be TRUE TO YOURSELF OR AUTHENTIC IN THE MUSIC BUSINESS?

00:29:10: and how do YOU keep TRUE to yourself?

00:29:13: Yeah, that's a good question.

00:29:18: I think my word for it really is just honesty...I have tried relatively successfully to discipline myself.

00:29:29: only do things i want to do and especially true when it comes to writing music takes a discipline because I think we're always filled by other people with ideas about what we should do, what's been done and impressive.

00:29:47: Even very well-meaning friends for all the so called right reasons can try to influence you.

00:29:54: Oh!

00:29:54: You actually should be doing more of this or...I liked it better when you did that And We All Live With That.

00:30:01: This capacity at some point say.

00:30:04: but What Actually Do I Really Want To Do?

00:30:09: the kind of separating out all the things you could do or that seem like they might bring something you want outside of music itself to pair it away and find what is this that drives you make a particular piece, play in a particular way.

00:30:33: I would say for me that's THE critical component.

00:30:38: writing music for me, is to sort that out.

00:30:41: And I think in my case it comes all these.

00:30:45: any good idea just come from an impulse and impulses not a logical extension of something before.

00:30:53: It's not Something just bestowed upon you From somebody else?

00:30:58: It's something You feel i Feel In My Body.

00:31:01: Actually This Could Be Interesting.

00:31:05: Whatever that is, it's like an electric impulse actually.

00:31:08: Um whatever That Is will not always enunciate itself clearly.

00:31:14: It won't tell me exactly what it wants and so this being true to that is What I care most about?

00:31:22: And its...what is it?

00:31:25: What do i really want from This thing?

00:31:27: Uh..it can be shocking!

00:31:30: There are some relations should appear to the unconscious, I think.

00:31:36: And...I really believe that the unconscious exists and this you know is Jung and Freud so forth, Lacan?

00:31:45: So many people seem to understand.

00:31:48: This is an immense reservoir of seemingly sort-of chaotic things That can emerge at any one time.

00:32:01: Probably an impulse has something to do with that.

00:32:04: It probably also have something to deal with external circumstances That move in certain ways, maybe they're not obvious things.

00:32:12: it could just be.

00:32:15: You know you put a different?

00:32:19: You get new windows in your house and the light coming in Your room is a little different can be there.

00:32:23: it can be something that small Can be Something that you notice when you are playing but you never noticed before.

00:32:31: So, I'm not necessarily talking about a huge thing.

00:32:33: I am talking something like disturbance or that you just feel oh this is different and interesting.

00:32:46: so it's the things i have to be true too no sense of being stylistically consistent actually an artificial construction.

00:32:59: We can do it in retrospect with people who are dead.

00:33:02: You have all their work, we might discover other works that change the picture a little bit but... People worked to make that picture from outside.

00:33:11: I don't think artists has to concern themselves with them.

00:33:15: And what drives you forward?

00:33:17: Do your have vision?

00:33:21: Yes!

00:33:22: It's this sense of something emerging the work I and others are doing.

00:33:29: I mean, Vondelweiser is a good name for that.

00:33:32: there probably many other names for them but you start to see your working not just alone obviously...but you're working in a field uh..and it's not like....it' s not like a feelin the sense of you specialize in neurology and thats a field medicine.

00:33:50: its a field that´s in their own way populated but can't be defined as such, is a category.

00:33:58: So this might mean there are all kinds of things in that field which aren't directly composition related.

00:34:04: they might be artistic works or people.

00:34:07: you know something he read on the poem somewhere.

00:34:11: But this collective entity watching us grow it's thing to drive me forward.

00:34:19: We already arrived at last question And this is, which tip would you like to give young artists?

00:34:29: Yeah.

00:34:30: That's again that something I think about all the time usually directed into a very specific person.

00:34:39: because if anything i've learned For me, that's actually the greatest danger of any kind of advice is that you're consciously or subconsciously shaping things to go already in your direction.

00:35:02: Certainly that on some level unavoidable.

00:35:05: everybody who believes strongly and what they do almost without consciously doing it starting to persuade other people.

00:35:14: but to the extent I can be conscious My only advice is really that they...that each artist has to find their own path.

00:35:26: I mean it's such a cliche, but its absolutely true.

00:35:30: and the maybe next part of that is to be suspicious Of things where you feel too heavily persuaded To do something That um..That You don't want to Do.

00:35:45: There's never any reason for an artist to do something they don't want to.

00:35:49: And I know it goes against most educational models, which are in my case having fairly rigid classical training... ...for part harmony counterpoint.

00:36:02: At some point i had learned western musical history.

00:36:09: That is a part of who am and Im glad that did.

00:36:11: but..I dont think thats what makes anyone a better or worse artist.

00:36:16: It's interesting on some level, but the idea that somehow there is any particular way in which one becomes worthwhile artists I actually reject.

00:36:28: and so you're always trapped into this contradiction even by saying an artist should find their own.

00:36:42: So maybe the thing is to try and grasp that, to try to grasp these tensions really exist.

00:36:49: You know it's not just a question of one out alone in field freely picking whatever flower one sees.

00:36:57: One always kind being shoved into certain direction has say but do I want be this direction?

00:37:05: Maybe thank you for pointing us.

00:37:08: now comes time at which i have think you know, somebody I trust has made me look at this area but maybe i still have to learn how to turn my head.

00:37:18: So yeah advice is difficult in that way.

00:37:21: what I'll say it's when I had students...I spent a long time trying be very patient with them and try spend the longtime not hours weeks years sometimes trying find out What do think they actually want.

00:37:40: This takes a while because everything that comes to me at first is what I want them do.

00:37:46: And this period of waiting for whatever it is they think they want to do, which will express itself in hundreds or sort-of small ways... That's usually what i'm waiting for and we should learn how to wait with ourselves the same process.

00:38:11: Thank you so much for taking your time with this interview and yeah, I think it is very inspiring.

00:38:17: And thank you so Much

00:38:19: was a pleasure.

00:38:20: Thank You!

00:38:21: that you were listening to me today.

00:38:48: I

00:39:10: hope,