00:00:08: My name is Rene Kurka and I cordially welcome you to my podcast, Noem Asir Kledi.

00:00:35: who are involved in this music scene.

00:00:37: I share with you the behind-the scenes, the insider knowledge and most important – The human beings out of this world!

00:01:04: I'm listening to your podcast and those are very, very beautiful encounters for me.

00:01:10: Also this summer we're gonna do the best of season again because it's quite a success actually!

00:01:18: And that is good way...to kind-of fill the summer..for many reasons....and when i do the Best Of Episodes.....I look at all the download numbers then decide from the episodes who rank really high to play them again.

00:01:36: And yes, you like that as I can see it and the downloads are great!

00:01:43: The best of episode today is very special because i have chosen it mainly actually for a sad reason.

00:01:56: The episode im sharing with you.

00:02:01: pianist, mentor Michael Harrison and I have known Michael for a few years now.

00:02:09: I met him a few year ago in Belliasco Italy with his wife Marina.

00:02:14: that was beautiful encounter.

00:02:17: we had been in touch then.

00:02:19: i visited New York and we meet again.

00:02:24: he also asked me to co-teach And so I have been also co-changing with him and his beautiful team, there are always many great participants.

00:02:37: Well the sad part is that Michael has died in April... ...I was quite devastated because it's a deep connection even though i've known for few years.

00:02:52: but anybody who met Michael he is such a deep warm hearted person and one of the most generous people I've ever met.

00:03:04: And also, One Of The Most Talented People.

00:03:06: So...I feel very honored and privileged that i have met Michael That we work together on many different ways and levels..that got to meet some people out his circle.

00:03:21: There are so many beautiful people who im still in touch with.

00:03:26: So in today's episode, I will replay an interview.

00:03:30: I've done with Michael a few years ago and... ...I want to share this interview with you today with Michael Harrison.

00:03:37: Hello Michael!

00:03:39: Dear Michael Harrison it is so great to meet you here.

00:03:42: Thankyou so much.

00:03:43: It was a pleasure meeting you too

00:03:45: And just for the audience we are now meeting in Palhau New York.

00:03:49: i'm really excited to see again because We met each other last year at Boliasko in Italy.

00:03:55: I guess it was, or this place we were, Polyaska Foundation is one of the most beautiful spots probably on the whole earth.

00:04:03: Or isn't?

00:04:04: Yeah i think its'the best place in world for a composer because The Composer Studio Is literally In the gardens perched couple hundred feet On a cliff over the Mediterranean And there's nothing that you see except For the mediterranean sky and rocks.

00:04:22: You have little studio with piano And so it's really a composer's heaven.

00:04:27: Yeah,

00:04:28: and there is this amazing garden that you have... It´s really steep through the ocean!

00:04:33: That´s fantastic.

00:04:35: So we are here now at a house on Pelham and.. ..it could be that you will hear ''Morning the Law''

00:04:43: Mowing the law MOWING

00:04:44: THE LAW And so its natural.

00:04:48: Let´s start.

00:04:51: Dear Michael, how did you find your way into new and experimental music?

00:04:56: Well my path in Music has always been on the creative side.

00:05:00: So even though when I first started playing.

00:05:02: I was taking traditional classical piano lessons My excitement came When my father gave me my First music theory lesson as my Father Was a mathematician but he understood music Theory And then that gave Me some of The tools That i could start to improvise and make up my own music.

00:05:22: So that was the beginning, in my really early teens maybe eleven or twelve thirteen but I would say i got indoctrinated into new music by Lamont Young .I was very fortunate when I met Lamont when I was nineteen to twenty years old.

00:05:41: I grew up Eugene Oregon which is a kind of ectopian heaven in the Pacific Northwest of the United States.

00:05:50: And I had the opportunity to come New York City a few times and, uh...and was able to meet with Lamont Young and told him how much i wanted to study with them.

00:06:01: The timing is perfect because he needed somebody tuned piano for his major work the well-tuned piano.

00:06:09: He auditioned me even though as self taught tuner And so I got sponsorship through the Dia Art Foundation, which were his patrons to come to New York for many years.

00:06:24: Of course i tuned the piano for The Well-Tuned Piano but I sat next to him every time he played the piece and as he composed it and developed it in all of its performances It was like a real apprenticeship.

00:06:37: you know at deep level that went on over many years Le Mans highly developed, mature artist who had relationships with John Cage and Yoko Ono.

00:06:55: And many important figures in music and culture and art to Walter de Maria... ...and his wife Marion Zazila and his guru became my Indian Music Guru Pandit Pranav….

00:07:09: …and of course Terry Riley whose best friend since high school or early years at college.

00:07:16: And so, I really kind of got introduced to this whole New York scene through the nineteen eighties and nineties.

00:07:26: Eventually moved in New York.

00:07:28: So that was my let's say indoctrination into new music.

00:07:34: It sounds like you already had very fine ears because it is all about tuning really relate to it and know what is about.

00:07:44: That's very impressive or unnatural!

00:07:48: Well, that wasn't by chance because what had happened was starting a year before I met Lamont... ...I became interested in Indian classical music and started studying with Lamont Young's Guru Pandit Pranav who actually met before I meet Lamont.

00:08:08: And so I was singing for a year or two playing the Tambora, which is an Indian drone instrument that has a lot of harmonics.

00:08:15: So it's the perfect instrument to sing with and so that had trained me to sing in just intonation when i didn't even know what Just Intonation Was!

00:08:27: After about A Year Of Singing Every Day When I'd Go To My Main Instrument Which Is The Piano...the piano started sounding out-of-tune And so I had the piano tuner come in tune and it still sounded out of tune.

00:08:38: So, i started studying the physics of sound... ...and I realized that the piano is tuned in equal temperament which a compromise system where all the harmonies are specifically out-of-tune.. ..so they can be equally spaced.

00:08:54: Of course with Indian music....I was singing you know an incredible focus on intonation..... ....and then developed my ear!

00:09:02: enabled me to tune the intervals in Le Mans Young's well-tuned piano without having any formal training.

00:09:08: And,

00:09:09: uh... The teacher was in

00:09:12: U.S.,

00:09:12: or did you go to India?

00:09:13: No it was in Pandit Pranav who lived in Berkeley California.

00:09:19: so I was going down first year with one of his disciples and then after that started studying with him at Berkeley.

00:09:27: You also answer a question because when i talk Singers on my podcast, I often ask them about the microtones because for many singers it's very difficult.

00:09:38: And also have a feeling that people

00:09:40: who are

00:09:42: familiar somehow with Indian music or even Greek or some

00:09:46: other

00:09:47: little more exotic music they have it so much easier.

00:09:50: and i've worked with Amelia Cooney

00:09:52: for a short

00:09:53: time And yeah, I don't know if i could dig deeper because... ...I also found that it really opens up this world or what's happening in the space.

00:10:03: In between but.. If you are so trained and a European Westong way It is hard at first to leave what seems so familiar right?

00:10:15: To myself.

00:10:16: Well people come at this.

00:10:19: There is so much we can talk about on this subject But the tragedy is that in Western music equal temperament, which how a piano was tuned became like law for western culture and then exported to all of European colonies around world.

00:10:45: And it's just one approach, but it's an approach that creates... every different tuning approach creates a new paradigm in music.

00:10:53: So equal temperament created music where resonance didn't matter as much for the most part and was about the ideas of their music unfolding relatively quickly in time.

00:11:06: because if you have ideas that are unfolding slower You want the harmonies to be more in tune than your gonna get in equal temperment.

00:11:14: I know you do The Music Of Hildegard von Bingen And of course you're going to sing Hildegard and Wampingham in just intonation, because that's the natural way we sing modal music.

00:11:29: So I find people come to alternate tunings through a few different pathways.

00:11:34: One is through world-music traditions particularly Indian Music.

00:11:37: You mentioned Amelia Cooney who I also know love her work Through electronics Because with Electronics & Computers You know, you can just start back from the beginning and don't necessarily dial up in equal-temperatuning.

00:11:54: And then other ways through early music because equal temperament really started coming into renaissance but didn't achieve fullness until let's say even mid to late eighteen hundredths.

00:12:13: so people that are doing early music have developed the ear for it as well.

00:12:18: And fortunately, there's quite a few of us that are...have been on these alternate pathways.

00:12:23: but now there is a surge in interest.

00:12:28: intonation and alternate tunings and just intonations specifically all over Western European and American countries.

00:12:40: And you mentioned your piano that it seemed then out of tune.

00:12:44: How is the piano tuned nowadays?

00:12:46: Or do you change it every two

00:12:48: days?".

00:12:50: I changed a lot, but right now...I have two Steinway pianos and one of them in my Revelation Tuning.

00:12:58: I've got work called Revelation which is probably most well-known work.

00:13:02: It's a seventy five minute microtonal version of Best Intonation that I invented.

00:13:09: And then, i have the other one in my Raga's tuning which I designed to play ragas and correct tuning on a piano.

00:13:17: But I do change it couple times every week not whole piano but some notes because... I'm working different projects with different keys so I had to change few notes.

00:13:26: also teach group class The group classes for men women voices that, you know the keys of A and B flat work well.

00:13:38: And the keys I'm doing most my music in are C & G. so i have to always be changing a few notes into tuning to accommodate different things.

00:13:47: but I've gotten it where can do relatively quickly.

00:13:50: When your worked with performers or when recording music.

00:13:54: what did we appreciate most?

00:13:58: Well...I had the blessing to have worked many great performers and everyone comes with their different skill sets.

00:14:08: So, for example one of my best collaborations is with a vocal group roomful-of-teeth And they're just...one the most amazing vocal groups in the world Not only because of their musicianship.

00:14:21: You know when they auditioned for The Position One of things I did was sight read Bartok string quartets.

00:14:27: so They have an incredible level of musicianship to pass on audition like that.

00:14:32: But they get trained because every summer, they do residencies with different experts in different world vocal traditions.

00:14:39: So they know how to do Mongolian throat singing, Sardinian singing... All sorts of yodeling and all sorts of techniques from around the world.

00:14:50: And so when you compose for them You can actually use these techniques.

00:14:54: The best thing about working with roomful teeth was their genuine interest in my music.

00:15:00: They contacted me, wanted a piece from me and they really were supportive of the whole process.

00:15:08: And it was also... Their musicianship was really helpful because I could literally send them The new draft for this score fifteen minutes before the rehearsal.

00:15:20: Everyone who pulled up on their iPads and singed It.

00:15:24: This is ingest intonation.

00:15:25: so you know, we did a little bit of work on the tuning but didn't need to do too much before they really embodied it fully and were able to sing in this microtonal tuning that I come up with.

00:15:40: And then they really did a lot with like...it was their idea to record it in The Tank.

00:15:46: The tank is a tank center for Sonic Arts in Rangeley Colorado.

00:15:52: It's an eighty foot tall ancient water tank ancient by American standards, not by European standards with a forty-second reverb that was saved and turned into performance in recording venue.

00:16:08: So it was the director of Roomful Of Teeth who had an idea to record at the tank.

00:16:12: so they came up with some funding.

00:16:15: we all went out this kind of week In the middle of nowhere Colorado recorded my piece and gave her performances as well.

00:16:24: That's one example.

00:16:27: You know, everyone does something different.

00:16:28: Like I know you've also worked with my collaborator Christina Vansu and Christina and her partner John Also Bennett bring a whole other set of skills to the table right?

00:16:41: So they don't usually work with written music like Roomful Of Teeth but their incredibly intuitive in there process developing recording performing music.

00:16:52: And i specifically wanted for these reasons because Christina, it really was enticing to me to hear how she goes into a recording studio with musicians and basically listens to what they're doing.

00:17:05: It gives us instructions on the outcome of this beautiful recordings.

00:17:10: I wanted to explore recording improvisational music in the studio with Christina.

00:17:18: The three of us teamed up and recorded an album that I'm very, very happy with.

00:17:23: And it's a completely different type of collaboration than something like With Room Full Of Teeth or The Chain Orchestra Alarm Will Sound who i've also worked with.

00:17:32: .I'll say a little bit about my current collaboration which is an ensemble five musicians.

00:17:40: Ena Philip whose vocalist from Brazil studied with the Gondesha Brothers in India for seven years.

00:17:48: So she's doing multi-track vocals with Indian Raghus.

00:17:53: And so we come up with frameworks and then lay down one vocal line, and then she does all these incredible vocal harmonies in the studio... ...and she is really expert at that!

00:18:05: There's no one else I've heard in the world who has done exactly this, creating these kind of harmonies ingest intonation with the Indian Rhagas.

00:18:15: And Elliot Cole who is a composer, producer and multi-instrumentalist, vocalist.

00:18:22: He's also working with me intimately on the project... ...and Ines' husband Benoit Roland whose French electroacoustic composer he does sampling of works that we're doing.

00:18:37: then comes up these amazing sound collages which become part of fabric And then we're working with three or four different tabla players depending on which location were developing our next stage of the project.

00:18:50: So, we are involved in really composing and creating music together.

00:18:56: so a lot it comes from ideas that I established.

00:18:59: but when you get together at a residency recording studio all these new ideas come.

00:19:04: We developed this very spontaneously and recorded nine hours already just in the last year, which is part of an art installation.

00:19:17: In The Church and Centre for Visual Arts it's called Passage... ...and its up through December of two thousand twenty-three in sixth channel audio And all of music based on Indian Rathas... ..in Justin Tenation includes the Justin Tenaitian Piano.

00:19:37: One thing that really interests me.

00:19:39: I'm kind of diverging on your question, but we can...I think i'm answering you a question at the same time.

00:19:45: One of things that really interested me is the intersection of Indian classical music with western music because indian classical music has so much to offer that Western Music doesn't for example The Raga System or Raga Science Is the most comprehensive form Of melody Or system of Melody in the world.

00:20:08: We have you know, a dozen different modes and scales that we work with in Western music.

00:20:13: And in Indian Music there are literally hundreds of ragas including ragas.

00:20:17: it may use the same scale set but have a different set of melodic pathways within the same Scale so they sound completely different.

00:20:25: Of course It's all ingest into Nation which is really attractive to me To have an ancient system of music to work with and develop.

00:20:33: The rhythmic system Is also very complex fascinating and satisfying.

00:20:40: I love the intersection of composition and improvisation, where there are set compositions but then as in jazz the performer develops an expertise in improvising along their set melodies.

00:20:56: But what Indian music doesn't have is...I can't say harmony because it has harmony but it doesn't have harmony in the sense of how we use that word in Western music, which is harmonic changes or chord changes.

00:21:16: Most as a harmony and indie music are either melodic notes against a drone – creating a diad right?

00:21:23: Or melodic outlines of harmonies.

00:21:25: And there's some very complex harmonies happening through the melodic outline including bitonal relationships, where the melody emphasizes a certain chord which may be very different than that cord produced by the drone.

00:21:42: And I find it quite fascinating because this concept of bitonality in the West has been around for about one hundred years but in Indian music its deeply embedded into music at least seven or eight hundred years.

00:21:57: So i'm interested in these hybrid harmony and chord changes to the ragas, but not in a way that's done like Bollywood music where you just sing an indie melody and put chord changes too.

00:22:11: Where I'm actually taking authentic shapes of the ragus and harmonizing them into diads or triads with multi-track vocals.

00:22:21: that Ena is doing for example.

00:22:23: Also some polyphony having ostinato on piano.

00:22:30: That creates polyphony with the melodic structures that are happening.

00:22:34: With right hand and piano or with vocals.

00:22:37: Also, production techniques You know...with computers and electro acoustics And all of those sounds we can create now in modern technology.

00:22:48: What I also found very interesting is you told me you were singing the ragas for quite some years.

00:22:56: You are composing for the human voice, which not all composers do.

00:23:01: And since I'm a singer myself... ...I always curious how it is when you're writing for a voice or if it's easy because you sing yourself?

00:23:11: Because some composers also tell me that they feel so difficult and emotional.

00:23:16: there are so many cliches about them!

00:23:21: So yeah.. hesitating towards writing for a voice, because as a singer I love pieces and so how is it for you?

00:23:31: Writing with the

00:23:33: human voice.

00:23:33: Oh!

00:23:33: It's...so great to write for the voice And it comes very natural to me Because i've been singing Indian Raghus For forty-five years And its daily practice.

00:23:44: So I sing one or two hours every day.

00:23:47: My whole approach To music tends be through The Voice.

00:23:51: You know, even when I play the piano or I'm composing at computer... ...I am thinking about the melodic line.

00:23:58: And trying to express it as a almost like you would through voice.

00:24:04: So to work with human voices is a luxury.

00:24:09: Also i view voice as most living sound and no sounds are flexible as the human voice.

00:24:23: So, yeah it's just amazing to have a chance work with singers like Ina Philip or Runeful of Teeth and i'm singing in my own composition some too more now than I used to And actually been singing on some recordings for new projects that were working.

00:24:39: so im excited about them.

00:24:43: Since Im visiting New York you already mentioned great people who are also living here.

00:24:50: How is the music scene in New York, or what can you tell us about for people who don't know anything about a music scene here?

00:24:58: Or especially new and experimental

00:25:02: music scene.

00:25:02: Well, New York City certainly one of the cultural capitals of the world... ...and one of economic culture's capitals as well too.

00:25:12: So it really amazing to have lived in New york now for thirty five years and having grown with the music scene here, there have been many different parts of the music seen from the minimalist downtown scenes that Lamont Yan was so much a part to.

00:25:36: The more contemporary classical scene in Manhattan School Of Music where I teach and also studied with composer Racko Fruiting who i know you're doing a podcast.

00:25:53: So, it really makes a big difference to be apart of the scene like this.

00:26:01: Because you can go to concerts any night or week and experience so many different types of music on very high level And then after the concert hang out with musicians.

00:26:14: You get know dozens of musicians who are most interested in.

00:26:21: you can develop more intimate relationships with and get to know their work even better.

00:26:26: And so, I've developed relationships with many different musicians over the decades here whose work i have paid a lot of attention too... ...and has influenced me in probably vice versa as well.

00:26:39: So..I really don't think that would want live my life anywhere other than New York.

00:26:44: But thats said!

00:26:45: The world has changed alot especially for the pandemic.

00:26:49: And while as I used to go to concerts two or three nights a week, and my friends and colleagues would literally have like forty concerts a week.

00:26:58: You know what?

00:26:58: I'd have to pick and choose which ones i really wanted to go too!

00:27:02: Now...I might go do maybe a concert every month.

00:27:06: Um..and I think that's because I'm just spending more time- I want more time at home working on my own music and also listening to music.

00:27:14: alot you know....And everything is available online now.

00:27:18: So one doesn't really need this scene or I'm fine.

00:27:22: I don't need it maybe as much As i used to but still, It's Really nice To have it accessible and also to be able to support my colleagues when you know their piece is getting performed by the New York Philharmonic Or they're operas being performed By The Metropolitan Opera Company?

00:27:37: uh...or whether its just a downtown thing at any One of the downtown music scenes.

00:27:46: Would You say that Its Just You in particular that you enjoying also time with yourself or your music?

00:27:52: Or would you say it's Also for other people living?

00:27:56: I think this has been a cultural shift.

00:27:57: I think the pandemic created huge cultural shift where we're spending more time With online communities and also listening More on line than life, and I don't think will ever go back in same way which is kind of sad because i want to see live music supported.

00:28:17: But we also need to find other ways to connect and we're doing it through the internet.

00:28:23: For example, I've been teaching Indian classical singing off-and on for most of my career And i taught for decades group classes in New York City.

00:28:35: Now I shifted into doing online.

00:28:37: It's actually much better because I have students from all over the world In a class...And its convenient and cheaper for people.

00:28:45: They don't spend time traveling.

00:28:47: And, you know we have a group of about thirty students that gets together and really formed an online community through these classes.

00:28:56: I also make the point if everyone getting to know each other in each others music can get chance.

00:29:00: share our music.

00:29:01: So your found obviously technical tool which makes it possible hear all those voices?

00:29:07: Exactly!

00:29:08: Amazing.

00:29:08: Well...

00:29:09: The way do is.. well i don't kno if u wanna hear details on how it works

00:29:12: Because im just.... have been teaching online like vocal lessons and some of my students kept taking those lessons on line

00:29:23: for various

00:29:23: reasons.

00:29:25: It kind of works.

00:29:26: just, you know there was in my voice but I think if they would be more people singing it wouldn't... My program would not support

00:29:36: that.

00:29:37: so obviously

00:29:39: the way we do is that everyone except for one person and myself are muted.

00:29:45: So we do traditional call-and-response, so I sing a phrase in the one of my co-facilitators.

00:29:51: there's five of them in class.

00:29:53: they take turns doing different classes.

00:29:55: They sing back their response And then rest of the class sings back your response but no one hears it...so they get support from other people singing the response But then you hear their own voice about halfway through the class, that person doing responses also mutes so people can just hear and experience their own voice.

00:30:15: Then... Also during a week at another time we have what is called a practice session which one of co-facilitators teaches the class but it's smaller classes.

00:30:26: So if they want to unmute or have more private lessons then here are your own voices get feedback

00:30:32: on them.

00:30:34: Interesting!

00:30:35: Cool.

00:30:36: And how is it?

00:30:38: here in New York, I mean at least Germany there's still prejudice against new and contemporary music.

00:30:46: How sit hear?

00:30:48: What can you do to change that?

00:30:50: or are people more open towards experimental music?

00:30:56: Well New York has a separate category because New York in general feel as one of the epicenters for contemporary music in the world, contemporary classical music and new music.

00:31:08: So there seems to be a lot of interest and support here much more than they are many other parts country.

00:31:15: but that said theres also less funding in United States America For Music and Arts in general.

00:31:22: then you have Europe or Canada which is sad and thats where we need room improvement.

00:31:33: You know classical.

00:31:34: most people these days only listen to popular music and it's always a little bit of surprise to me because I Know that about the general public, but I also do a lot of residencies like we met at Bolly Oscar Foundation in Italy Where there are artists from different parts of the world?

00:31:52: And different disciplines.

00:31:53: so visual artists choreographers painters writers etc.

00:31:58: And It always surprises me that even in a community of artists that most are primarily just listening to popular music.

00:32:07: And have, for the most part there is exceptions but very limited interest or experience in other forms whether it be world music classical music contemporary classical music jazz and from my understanding at least fifteen years ago classical music amounted something like three percent of the music that people listen to, and I'm sure it's even less today.

00:32:34: So contemporary classical music or new music is way less than one percent!

00:32:41: And yet...of course this is the field where innovation is happening.

00:32:46: This is a field where music is developing.

00:32:49: so its really sorry state for our culture That this kind of dichotomy exists.

00:32:57: Now there are reasons why they developed and exists, we can get into those or not.

00:33:03: And it has changed over the last century a lot.

00:33:06: There have been periods where there was even less interest in new music than there is now In periods when there's more.

00:33:13: One of things that its hard for an audience to accept atonality.

00:33:21: Because if you look at painting contemporary art Even If You Don't Understand It or appreciate it, you can move on to the next painting in The Gallery.

00:33:33: And so you might only have a few seconds of interaction.

00:33:35: but if you go to a concert at Contemporary Music You're committed to sitting there for one-or two hours and engaging with them So that people find disorienting is difficult.

00:33:53: That's why I'll use your word, prejudiced against new music.

00:34:00: But New Music has also broadened a lot right?

00:34:04: There's a period where most new music was experimental or atonal and maybe it was harder for broader audience to appreciate.

00:34:15: but now there are so many different types of new music that have a tonal center or influenced by world music traditions, early music traditions jazz so many different things that our audience can find where they're interested in.

00:34:38: And I think there's all these little micro audiences developing for all of the different types of contemporary music and some people like you are doing so much to educate audiences about the possibilities, what's available.

00:34:56: So people don't have to feel like new music is just one particular genre.

00:35:00: it's actually a whole bunch of different countries all with their cultural tendencies.

00:35:09: and you already told us that your practicing raga two hours a day which was amazing!

00:35:16: That so cool.

00:35:17: I'm meditating but without singing.

00:35:21: Then I go to the piano and practice whatever is there, to

00:35:24: practice.

00:35:26: And i'm always curious how you kind of deal with your day?

00:35:30: Is there any

00:35:32: time

00:35:32: management or how do you structure your day?

00:35:35: Or if they're a structure... How did you do it when playing the piano composing singing planning organizing You

00:35:43: are not teaching.

00:35:45: So no..I believe at least for me It's very important have routine.

00:35:51: And one thing that I do every day is to sing Indian ragas, because it's like my meditation and attunement.

00:36:01: It keeps me joyful and alive in the world of music.

00:36:08: Now i did this for first thirty years with a tambora sitting on the floor.

00:36:17: because it incorporates more of my interest in music.

00:36:20: I play the piano, and developing playing ragas on the piano.

00:36:24: I'm exploring harmonies in the ragas and singing at same time.

00:36:28: Sometimes that's just developing traditional Indian classical repertoire In ragas And other times I am improvising to develop new ideas for compositions.

00:36:40: That makes a really great start.

00:36:47: Let's say the middle part of my day, kind of nine to five parts a day is different every day depending on what I need work.

00:36:53: If i have a commission or deadline and am working for that if im preparing recording session then i'm working in matter performance.

00:37:02: so it could be couple hours at piano or computer just depends upon whats its not top of list.

00:37:11: and of course administering my career by handling emails, teaching students, teaching classes.

00:37:18: You know all that.

00:37:20: And then I try to take some time in the late afternoon every day To kind of come back to what i'd say is my core spiritual practice which could be you Know doing yoga and singing more ragas.

00:37:33: We're going for a long walk Just something to nourish myself after days work.

00:37:41: I just do whatever i'm inspired to, you know.

00:37:44: It could be composing more or practicing more listening to music Or chess...I also am an amateur chess player and I find it really relaxing and invigorating too at the end of a day To play chess And that keeps my mind sharp.

00:38:04: You told us in the beginning your dad is so.

00:38:07: My dad was a mathematician, creative mathematician.

00:38:10: So he specialized in abstract algebra and so he was constantly writing formulas coming up with you know kind of creative mathematics And my grandfather was a Creative Scientist.

00:38:24: He was uh...in the field of spectroscopy which is The Science Of Light and he became the Dean of Science at MIT where he the acting dean and the Dean Emeritus for over thirty years.

00:38:40: So I have this kind of math science background, which of course infiltrates through my music primarily from interest in tuning and just intonation.

00:38:53: but really there's a beautiful quote by...I forget who it is by but he was German polymaths from Renaissance or Baroque period contemporary Bach.

00:39:05: actually that music is the arithmetic of the soul unaware its own act of

00:39:12: counting.

00:39:15: And every aspect in music, it's a form of mathematics right?

00:39:20: Because a melody has different tones and scale but actually the frequencies forms different whole number proportions rhythm of course dividing everything time in a sequence of mathematical equations.

00:39:37: And harmony, then it becomes even more complex with different frequencies happening spontaneously or simultaneously.

00:39:46: and we have form and structure.

00:39:48: Composers like Bartok and Debussy and Bach all used the golden ratio in their form and structures for

00:39:57: works.

00:39:59: I also find interesting that i have the feeling There are kind of two types, either the ones who were not into mathematics at all and they're usually also the one's

00:40:14: that

00:40:15: when you study them don't like music theory.

00:40:18: They try to skip it... And their talented whatever singers just do a thing there may be very intuitive I dont know but that was horror for them to have a music theory class or harmony class.

00:40:33: And then there's this other type of musician who is really good at math and in music theory also, it easy... In Germany when you do the final degree of your high school which is called Abitur There is system where can pick subjects.

00:40:54: And when I did this degree, the Sabitour... ...I also picked for my main subject music and math.

00:41:04: And it was good at first.

00:41:06: expect then!

00:41:07: I wouldn't say no.

00:41:10: It's a combination that most people in my class had with

00:41:15: Math

00:41:16: & Music.

00:41:18: For me, music theory as well.

00:41:23: I also had Latin which is very logical.

00:41:27: And so, um...I'm not sure if i would like deal with it all day long because then a rather sane and that was also when I have to make the decision or just study?

00:41:39: Then I said no!

00:41:40: I want to do music because I cannot imagine doing eight hours a day math but It still comes handy that there is some talent, or if you for a project have whatever financial plans it's easy to deal with numbers.

00:41:57: And so I've always found this interesting because also when i studied then at Southern MFDC University as well... ...I was one of the singers who liked going into theory classes and all these others were like why do you like it?

00:42:08: I had to skip it!

00:42:09: Oh its so annoying!

00:42:13: That's fascinating dichotomy.

00:42:15: Its true that there is a large group of musicians who are very fluent at mathematical things, and in the large groups they aren't.

00:42:24: And really have done more intuitively by ear.

00:42:30: I suppose it has something to do with right brain-left brain too processes integrating those processes so... It's fascinating.

00:42:37: music is really a miniature everything in the universe!

00:42:44: If we think about you know, there's no better training to become a human being than to practice music because it engages our brain and our physical body in all of these different ways.

00:42:58: You know I'd like to share a story with you because there is very popular movie out right now Oppenheimer about the scientists that developed The Nuclear Bomb.

00:43:09: And he of course knew Albert Einstein and I believe became the director of The Institute of Advanced Study at Princeton, which was I believe founded by Einstein or Einstein's associates.

00:43:27: And apparently, Einstein got together at one point with a bunch people who were in their top fields...in the top-of-their-fields in the world right?

00:43:37: So scientists politicians People have many different walks of life but had all achieved extreme excellence in their field.

00:43:46: And they all had dinner together one night to try and figure out if they have anything in common because there were different countries around the world, different languages, different backgrounds...and then found that you've studied music!

00:43:58: Oh really?

00:44:00: Isn't it

00:44:00: amazing?!

00:44:01: That is amazing.

00:44:02: yes I mean i also know this.

00:44:05: when you do music or sing You always use your right and left brain in the more creative side and that they are really well connected, which is sometimes hard for people to do because they either switch.

00:44:25: And yeah it's always interesting.

00:44:28: I mean for us its so natural.

00:44:31: but...I also think if you then reach a mastery of one thing It seems sometime so easy too put it on other areas as well, because you kind of know how to get there.

00:44:47: and then we applied.

00:44:49: Exactly!

00:44:50: And a lot people that went to conservatories in universities who studied music... ...who found it difficult to make a living with new music.... ...went into other fields.

00:44:59: I know so many people were successful in business or finance.. ..or some different area.

00:45:07: Music actually gave them fundamental trainings in life that they were able to use in other fields.

00:45:12: I can also tell a story after.

00:45:15: i went back After my yeah bachelor and masters Canada, US.

00:45:22: And then um...I was also translating at fairs Like you say.

00:45:29: fairs like business fairs where companies

00:45:32: conferences

00:45:33: conference come together?

00:45:36: Back then a very well-paid job, so I did the few days of translating.

00:45:40: I had all my money together and then i did music.

00:45:43: So like...I worked three days A month And I could pay My

00:45:47: rent or whatever I needed

00:45:48: to.

00:45:49: And um..So I got To meet different companies But I was not really interested in them because I wanted to be a singer

00:46:00: but Often times

00:46:01: they offered me a job

00:46:03: Well

00:46:04: like in the marketing, whatever.

00:46:06: And then I asked them why do you offer me this job?

00:46:09: I have studied music and i'm a singer!

00:46:15: We've

00:46:16: been watching you... You can deal with people really well ...and your musician yes.

00:46:20: Do you know how to bring it to the point or do you say differently ?

00:46:27: No that's good !

00:46:28: To the point.

00:46:29: You work under stress and you know how to build it up, have the result.

00:46:36: And they say that whatever about marketing or what ever wanted me we can teach them but do everything else we

00:46:43: need.".

00:46:44: I was like oh!

00:46:48: Back then.

00:46:50: It gave me relief because i always thought if I won't make it

00:46:55: would

00:46:55: probably be able find a job but I always declined

00:46:59: because i'm like no,I

00:47:00: want to sing.

00:47:02: Oh that's such a fabulous story and so happy to hear that!

00:47:05: And

00:47:05: I was also so relaxed because I was often talking with the CEOs.

00:47:12: But since I didn't care... I wasn't even like... I don't know... Humble or something?

00:47:18: I really asked him straight out Why did you even get this idea?

00:47:23: Because

00:47:23: you're so relaxed, because your not trying to sell yourself.

00:47:27: So they told me I'm like oh interesting!

00:47:31: There's obviously big value in studying music and we love music for us.

00:47:37: it is such a big part of life that i could not live without music.

00:47:41: but...I

00:47:42: am so happy hear you say that and think thats very important for musicians and teachers.

00:47:47: be aware tell their students Because, you know a lot of people don't go into music because they're discouraged.

00:47:54: They won't be able to make a living.

00:47:55: and this is uh... A nice antidote that musicians can encourage.

00:48:01: People can encourage the study in music as it develops skills which are also used In other locations in life.

00:48:09: The other side I think worth mentioning Is how important it is for people who have other vocations than music.

00:48:17: To do Music as amateurs, because you know and I find probably most of the musicians in the world are quote amateur musicians right people that don't make their living doing it but love music more than anything else.

00:48:31: And they work another job ,and they do music with a free time .And i think is such an incredible thing.. ..and I encourage people to do all the time... ...because They can have different approach to music.

00:48:42: then we can sometimes professionals Because there's professional musician.

00:48:47: our livelihood is at stake, right?

00:48:49: So it's very easy to develop this kind of love-hate relationship with your work because you also have to do it as a career.

00:48:58: But if you're doing it purely as an amateur —you don't have that— and you can explore the type of music that you are most interested in which –of course– we as professional musicians ought to be doing anyway!

00:49:09: Right?!

00:49:10: And... You can really develop an art without having the pressure as a performer to make your living doing it, and in the way that can be even more satisfying.

00:49:21: So I just want to encourage all of you listeners out there who practice music but don't do it as a profession...to really continue to do that and dive into deeper.

00:49:34: Since you're already having such long career.

00:49:37: i'm also very curious how what does this mean for yourself?

00:49:42: or authentic?

00:49:44: go out to music business, and how do you do that?

00:49:47: Right.

00:49:48: That is a challenge because there's always the temptation to quote sell-out right To find a way to do something.

00:50:00: they will be more popular or successful Or make money.

00:50:05: But in the end but maybe satisfying for some people found that it wasn't satisfying.

00:50:18: And so, you know the fundamental purpose of my music is for to be my own spiritual path—to do music... To bring happiness and joy into my life —to bring deeper sense of peace and understanding.

00:50:37: It does that because every day I'm singing You know, I'm singing ragas and going deep inside the sound where it's like a meditation for me.

00:50:45: Right?

00:50:45: So my musical path is my spiritual path... ...is my life path And that kind of integration has been very satisfying.

00:50:54: It led to a very satisfying life from you so i am happy with that.

00:51:01: Did I answer your question?

00:51:03: Yes!

00:51:05: And since you bring back together right out of your whatever heart and soul, you'd be happy then.

00:51:14: I believe that it's also nice for the listeners even if not to your intent

00:51:19: but there

00:51:20: is a lot power

00:51:22: in music

00:51:23: Exactly!

00:51:26: When i'm doing my best music than when im doing music other myself And I trust in the process that if I'm engaged with a music and find it engaging, there's going to be some other segment of humanity.

00:51:49: It is going to resonate with the same thing as what I am resonating

00:51:52: with.".

00:51:55: That has proved true!

00:52:00: So besides encouraging myself on my path... ...I encourage students or anyone who is mentoring me whatever it is that they're the most interested in, and life.

00:52:13: And music or art...and pursue that.

00:52:17: Another way to look at this Is when you go into your studio To create your art Do you focus on doing something to show something?

00:52:29: To show a technique Or to discover something To find something?

00:52:35: I think The second approach In the end is much more fulfilling because we're engaging with our work.

00:52:44: It's a dialogue, right?

00:52:46: it is not just doing to show.

00:52:48: and that part of the problem with whole jury system in education.

00:52:52: today you are encouraged to present something infront of your jury.

00:52:59: its going serve well but...that creates can be damaging..to the dialog we need develop on their own where we're listening to our work, where we are seeing what it has to tell us and taking the cues from their work.

00:53:16: And continuing developing that way.

00:53:19: That's why creates a much more interesting life as an artist... ...and in the end I believe create some more interesting

00:53:24: art.

00:53:27: What does success mean for you?

00:53:30: For me success is that i'm living happy and joyful life.

00:53:36: music That is so much more meaningful than if I'm getting a lot of performances and a lot commissions.

00:53:44: Of course, I need to make a livelihood in it too And that's sometimes the challenge.

00:53:49: But If i stay focused on doing music that im most interested in Then usually have some level material success that follows as well.

00:54:02: Is there anything that drives you forward or what does your motivation or vision, no whatever.

00:54:10: Well I'm working on a very big project right now.

00:54:13: it's a lifelong project that i've spent my whole life preparing to do and I can't talk about in detail but uh... It will start coming out as the series of albums gradually over next ten years And its based on Indian ragas how they corresponded at different times.

00:54:36: What I love about it is that its incorporating all the different things i'm interested in.

00:54:43: Just intonation, composition, improvisation working with an ensemble and many different collaborators Indian classical music combined with western music.

00:54:59: It's a big ambitious project And im already well underway Your listeners having opportunity to hear the recordings and to... ...hear the compositions, and improvisations that develop through this project.

00:55:15: Amazing!

00:55:17: Yeah I really enjoyed talking with you here in Pelham And we

00:55:23: arrived

00:55:23: at The Last Question and i would like to know from you which tip Would You Like To Give

00:55:28: Young

00:55:29: Artists?

00:55:30: Well..the keyword In your question is young because young means that you're in the beginning stages of hopefully what will be a long life.

00:55:47: And, What can be more exciting than having whole-life in front of you if your life is one of questioning and seeking?

00:56:01: So I would encourage any young artist to really pay a lot attention to what they're the most interested in, because your life will be much more fulfilling and you work much more inspired if you are following your instincts about your interests.

00:56:26: And I also would encourage people on The Creative Path Because one of the dichotomies particularly our culture is that Most musicians actually aren't creators in the normal sense of a word, that they're reproducing somebody else's music through notation.

00:56:50: Which I think and you could talk more about this than I could has maybe limiting amount of satisfaction when... ...I believe there can be so much more satisfaction When as performer or also creator Indian classical music, there's no separation.

00:57:12: The performer is the creator and then jazz-the same thing.

00:57:17: So we just have this dichotomy in Western Classical Music And I think we're starting to bridge it much more like... ...The New School here in New York has a new program that they've opened up where you can get a master's degree as a composer or performer.

00:57:34: It's not genre specific can be in any genre of music, whether it's pop music, jazz or classical or world music.

00:57:41: Or electronics.

00:57:43: and so interesting that they've came up with this idea and its attracting a lot people.

00:57:49: And as culture we need to do the same thing.

00:57:52: We need revamp our education programs To encourage performers find their own voice As creative artists not just through interpretation.

00:58:05: And so my message to your young artists is whatever field you're in, find your own creative instincts and pursue them with all of your

00:58:16: heart.

00:58:17: Thank You very much Michael Harrison.

00:58:19: it was great talking today!

00:58:23: It's been a real pleasure spending this time here at Pelham New York.

00:58:27: This was the interview from Today.

00:58:30: I hope that inspired you And please send me your emails, send my feedback because I love to interact with you.

00:58:41: Thankyou very much that you tuned in today!

00:58:45: I really hope that you liked it and please tell your friends about this podcast.